Minutes of 42 CF Health Services Centre Labour Management Consultation Committee (LMCC) Meeting - 14 August 2025
42 CF Health Services Centre
5th Canadian Division Support Base Gagetown
PO Box 17000 STN Forces
Oromocto, NB E2V 4J5
1180-1 (Secy)
MINUTES OF 42 CF HEALTH SERVICES CENTRE LABOUR MANAGEMENT CONSULTATION COMMITTEE (LMCC) MEETING 14 AUGUST 2025
Management Chairperson: Maj Nathan MacKinnon
Labour PIPSC Chairperson: Laura Lee Mullin
Labour UNDE Chairperson: Maria Gooding
Members in attendance:
Sébastien Bérubé: Management
Jean Millette: Management
Capt. Alicia Robinson: Management
Kailey VonRichter: PIPSC
Laura Lee Mullin: PIPSC
MWO Pamela Hancock: Invited
Shawna Berthe (online): Invited, ESDC
Nicole MacNeil: invited
Welcome and Introduction- Maj MacKinnon (00:00 – 05:30)
CO started the meeting at 1332hrs and welcomed members of the committee. Maria Gooding setup online Teams meeting for Shawna Berthe to attend. CO gained the consent of all members to be recorded during the meeting to produce the minutes, said recording will be deleted once all co-chairs agreed with the content of the minutes. CO introduced Shawna Berthe to the committee. CO introduced Jean Millette as the new Mental Health Services Manager. No questions or concerns expressed by the members of the committee.
Review of previous minutes of 28 February 2025 – Maj MacKinnon (05:30 – 06:59)
- Typo mistake was identified by Laura-Lee Mullin in Kailey Von Richter’s name in the previous minutes. Kailey determined that amending the previous minutes was not needed.
- CO asked the committee if they had the time to review the previous minutes and if anybody had any questions regarding the content as it stands.
- Previous minutes were accepted by all members of the committee.
Old Business (07:05 – 45:14)
CFHIS / IT support (Update) – Maj MacKinnon (08:00 – 11:05)
- CO mentions that this point has been a point of contention.
- CO mentions a request is in to create a new position of public servant dedicated to IT. The role of the incumbent would be to take care of all aspects related to managing IT within the unit.
- CO mentions there is no traction on that file yet.
- CO intends to continue pushing for the creation of that position. No movement for now. - Laura Lee asks if the higher echelons of the organization denied the request. - CO mentions it’s pending and still in the process.
- Capt. Robinson says they are (4 H Svcs C J1) all revising all the requests that were put forward by the unit.
- Laura Lee asks who asked to revise all the requests, and this one in particular, 4 H Svcs G or Higher?
- CO answers the request is with 4 H Svcs G, however the outcome of the request is being influenced by CF H Svcs G because the clinic growth across the CAF is being managed nationally. The release of positions to be authorized to staff is done on a national basis. All requests go to the HRRC to have the authorization to staff new positions or existing positions that become vacant.
- CO confirms that the request has not been officially denied, it’s only in the process of getting ruled on. CO confirms his intent to push hard to get this position.
ACTION: No Items to action. Item to be removed from old business for the next meeting.
NVCI (Update) – Maj MacKinnon / Laura Lee Mullin (11:15 – 19:31)
- Laura Lee mentions that a lot of staff members are expired currently. Seeking direction on the next serials especially when and who will be prioritized to get the training. - CO mentions that talks were held surrounding staff members to be qualified bi-yearly. Third party contractor mentioned that people should be qualified on a yearly basis. CO mentions that it’s not because the third-party contractor is identifying the training as a yearly need, that the unit must follow through. CO can identify that the training is more appropriate to be given on a bi-yearly basis.
- CO reached out to the Higher HQ requesting if there was any formal policy or guidelines surrounding NVCI training / Work Health and Safety training. Waiting for an answer. - Laura Lee emphasizes the need for a decision being taken in partnership with labor. Laura Lee mentions that they think that yearly training is more than appropriate. Open for further discussions.
- Jean Millette requests what NVCI stands for.
- Laura Lee describes that NVCI stands for Non-Violent Crisis Intervention and then explains the program and the content.
- Kailey requests information regarding recertification.
- Laura Lee explained that a narrowed down version does exist for people that already followed the first course. Training for recertification is about 1 day.
- Kailey requests if this is something that could be done at the mandatory briefings in October.
- CO mentions that if the refresher can be attained within 1 day, that would be way easier for clinicians to attend. Mentions that if the answer coming back from the higher HQ is ruling NVCI as a mandatory training, clinic could be closed for one day so everybody can attend (part of the annual training).
- CO requests Laura Lee to link with MCpl Lynch, training NCO, to have NVCI training scheduled in the training calendar.
- CO mentions the priority of training should go as follows:
o New members of the unit
o Personnel desiring to have the refresher course
o Personnel that are comfortable but expired
- Laura Lee agrees with the priorities.
- CO mentions the cost is not issue, if the cost is provided long in advance to Christy Fraser, Fin O.
ACTION: Laura Lee to contact MCpl Lynch to setup a training calendar regarding NVCI.
ESDC (update) – Shawna Berthe (19:34 – 33:35)
- CO mentions Shawna had a visit of the clinic recently to ensure compliance with the action plan. Mentions a lot of items are now being seen as yellow, waiting to be completed.
- CO mentions they received 100% design package for the security upgrades. Going out to tender.
- CO mentions the start of the renovations could potentially be October 2025 but is reliant on availability of contractors, according to the most recent information given by Neil Allaby from RP Ops.
- Kailey mentions the stanchions previously purchased are not working. - CO requests if there is anything that could be proposed and work better. - Kailey mentions that some are broken and not physically working
- CO mentions those items can be purchased to replace the current ones that are broken. - CO mentions they will be linking with Ops to get the broken ones replaced. - Kailey asks if a commissionaire is patrolling the pedway (portion next to the staff room in primary care, staff entrance in the breezeway).
- CSM mentions commissionaires are walking around and patrolling during the day. Mentions that so far it looks like people are just following the signage to get access to the other portion of the building.
- Kailey mentions when the new portion of the building opened there was a commissionaire stationed there.
- CSM mentions that an issue was identified at the back door regarding fire regulations, and a commissionaire had to be relocated at that entrance for the whole day until the door is fixed.
- Laura Lee mentions receiving a 663 related to an unescorted patient that was an integral part of the list of patients to be escorted, this happened multiple times. Investigation is not completed.
- CSM mentions that several incidents occurred with the same patient, commissionaires don’t have the authority to detained someone or stand in the way of the patient. MP’s were called in to solve this issue and escorted the patient out. CSM is heavily involved with the members’ chain of command now to solve the issue. Under their perspective the situation is under control. Patient is aware that they must be escorted when coming to the clinic.
- Kailey asks if ESDC will be meeting with labor. Last ESDC personnel in charge of the file of the clinic were meeting with the labor representatives.
- Shawna mentions they can set something up for sure.
- Kailey mentions that the process heavily changed in the last year and a half, unions were consulted thoroughly and now labor representatives have 0 awareness of what is going on.
- Shawna explains that the last visit was not an actual official inspection. They were looking into very specific things. If there is an official inspection, labor representatives would have been informed. Also explains, there is no minimum mandate for the ESDC investigator to reach out and keep union representatives informed but offers a meeting to the union representatives in-person or online.
- Kailey is wondering what is the level of engagement that union representatives are expected to pursue.
- Shawna mentions they will send out their contact information if there are any questions regarding the process.
- Kailey asks if there is a plan or an inspection schedule, who does that work. - Shawna mentions it depends on how many files their department must take care of plus some sectors are slotted as being a higher priority.
- CO asks once the security infrastructure is built in if it will satisfy almost all of the items identified in the action plan. Will it close the investigation?
- Shawna mentions that when all items are actioned it closes the investigation and then only follow-ups are being made. Most probably a pro-active inspection every year. Reiterates to reach out for any questions/comments/etc.
ACTION: CO will link up with Ops to have the broken extensions replaced.
Critical staffing levels – Maj Mackinnon (33:43 – 45:14)
- CO mentions the clinic is experiencing a continuously reduction in the critical staffing levels. Mentions the starts of the new MHSM, a new clerk started as well, another one starting 11th September, approval to staff 2 more CR04’s clerks, 2 social workers, 2 EG05 Occupational Health Technicians.
- Sebastien mentions that in some other circumstances HR paperwork has been approved by staffing advisors, but the delta is the security clearance (1 OT and 1 PT).
- Kailey asks if this point was related to the minimum amount of clinicians needed to operate safely at the clinic.
- CO mentions that they don’t want to articulate a specific ratio of patient per clinician. This is more of a clinical question which is aimed at Maj. Shawn Casey. Their understanding is roughly 12 patients per clinician per day.
- Kailey mentions there are days when there is only 1 clinician in the clinic to cover all the needs.
- CO reiterates that this is a clinical decision to be taken by Base Surgeon. - Kailey requests if there is a SOP related to the ratio of patients per clinician. - CO mentions having a SOP on that topic would require an in depth clinical evaluation
because it is based on a clinical judgement, because each day is different in the patients conditions that will be encountered daily.
- CO mentions an openness to have a SOP mentioning the role of the Base Surgeon in evaluating what is a safe ratio of clinicians daily, however this component is also covered in the job description of the Base Surgeon.
- CO mentions due to new MO’s being posted in the occurrences of having only one clinician to cover all the needs of the clinic should decrease significantly. Also mentioned, the authorization to hire 3 x LPN’s to conduct triage.
- Laura Lee mentions at the latest visit of the 4 H Svcs G CO’s there were mentions regarding the significant reduction in the number of Calian contractors awarded and those positions being switched to PS. Laura Lee asks if it will be the case for the pharmacy with positions of PS pharmacists.
- CO mentions the conversations are a work in progress, consistently evolving circumstance position by position. Impossible to predict the timeframe now. - CO mentions some employment titles are easier to attract via Calian vs PS. CO reiterates all efforts will be made to convert as many positions as possible.
- Laura Lee mentions in the past some discussions were held regarding adding some PS positions and suddenly there was a change of mind from the people at the top of the organization.
- CO reiterates that Col Kirk has influence over where we are going as an organization but doesn’t have any control or authority over what is done with the positions. CO explains that this is a treasury board decision pertaining to what PS employees are employed in which department. For every PS employee that DND grows by another federal department will have an equal opposite reaction. Essentially puzzle pieces are moved around to better situated the federal public service footprint.
- Laura Lee mentions that DND was ignored for years, while other departments grew substantially (SSC, ESDC).
- CO mentions plans to increase substantially the defense budget by increasing from 2% of GDP to 3.5% and then potentially to 5%. No options than growing the organization with the current plan. Confident there will be growth, but unsure about the specifics.
ACTION: CO to send written correspondence to Base Surgeon to ask questions related to clinical ratio decisions (this item was actioned before the minutes were typed in).
New Business (45:14 – 1:10:09)
Security Upgrades – Maj Mackinnon (45:14 – 46:46)
- CO mentions it was captured under the old business section.
- Shawna asks if the security upgrades construction will start in October. - CO says the expectation is that the security upgrades work will start in October based on the perception of the project manager. It could be delayed depending on particulars surrounding the tender process and availability of contractors.
ACTION: No items to action currently.
Code white walkthrough / drill plan – Maj Mackinnon (46:46 – 51:01)
- CO mentions their intent is to have a conversation with Base Surgeon and the team when Anna McInnis will be back on the ground regarding code white walkthrough/drill. - CO mentions Shawna Berthe requested to attend the walkthrough / drill plan for a code white.
- Intent is to make sure the staff knows what to do in the event of a code white. - CO mentions there is a risk in delaying the drill, but the staff sitting at the code white panel knows what actions to implement if there is a code white.
- CO mentions that the administration of narcotics can’t be imposed on a violent/aggressive patient unless they consent to it.
- Shawna asks when it should be roughly.
- CO mentions probably the first week of September.
- Shawna is not available in the second week of September.
- CO mentions that the second week of September will be avoided to make sure ESDC representative can witness the drill.
ACTION: Meeting between the department managers and HQ to set up a date for those walkthrough and drill.
Staff vacancy report – Maj Mackinnon (51:01 – 52:52)
- CO mentions this is a moving target
- CO mentions a meeting with Capt. Robinson in the morning of 15th August 2025 to talk about all the staffing vacancies and all the issues plaguing the staffing files. - CO mentions to pay attention to the legend in the organization chart when it will be distributed.
ACTION: CO will be sending a detailed list of all staffing files and where they are with a list of vacant positions.
Grievance Stats – Maj Mackinnon (52 :52 – 59 :40)
- CO mentions the LRO could not attend the meeting due to late invitation being sent out. - CO mentions that they believe that there are no current civilian grievances within the unit at the moment that are opened. Mention is made that the LRO has the official numbers but couldn’t attend the meeting.
- CO mentions they will engage with the LRO to make sure that there are no current civilian grievances open now.
- Kailey mentions previous difficulties for civilian staff to get their licenses reimbursed. Mentions that 95% of the grievances that she handled were related to that topic. Requests an established process for professional dues well in advance.
- Sebastien requests what is the meaning of the established process looked for. - Kailey would like somebody to say there are the forms to fill out and this is who you send them to. Mentions the forms changed recently (last year).
- Maria mentions the forms changed right in the middle of the license’s renewals bulk (DND 276). Mentions there are no pre-warning of any form, the change was imposed unilaterally while some files were already filed in.
- Sebastien mentions that for the D&T department it takes about 3-4 weeks to get the signatures of the Base Surgeon and CO which is reasonable and is conditional to have all the proper signatories on the ground. The other component is once it is sitting in the compensation system, there is not much that can be done to increase the speed of completion of the claim. Mentions that license reimbursement claims in D&T are actioned quickly in their experience.
- Kailey mentions their experience is quite different and the process changes each single year. Requests an email to be sent out to the staff with all the proper forms and process to follow.
- Maria mentions it’s totally doable.
- CO asked Maria to draft an email identifying the process and said email will be sent out unit wide.
- Laura Lee mentions the great job done by their manager on that front; no significant deficiency was found in the D&T department regarding professional licensing in the recent years. Employees appreciate the efforts made by their manager.
- CO requests forms not to be attached to the unit wide email to make sure there won’t be any confusion if the forms change along the way.
- Maria mentions a change in the process for refunds for military members.
ACTION: CO to provide an update when information is confirmed via the LRO. Maria to provide the proper process for military members and civilians via email to be sent out unit wide.
TOR-Review – Maj Mackinnon (59:40 – 1:10:09)
- CO asks if any member of the committee has any questions regarding the TOR’s of the committee.
- Jean Millette asks if the unit has a union board.
- Laura Lee identifies the location of the board for Jean.
- Sebastien has questions regarding page 3 point 16 (copy of the approved minutes to be sent out). Requests POC for both UNDE and PIPSC.
- Laura Lee mentions the POC for PIPSC, which will be sent via Teams message. - Laura Lee asks if the timeline to produce the minutes to 1 week is enough. - Sebastien confirms 1 week to produce the minutes is enough.
- Jean asks how the LMCC is promoted to the other workers.
- Laura Lee mentions sending out an email to the entire PIPSC membership requesting to them any points or topics that they would have to pass on before each LMCC. Mentions a usual limited return from their members. Mentions all returns are treated with confidentiality as no names are being told at the meeting.
- The group mentions the absence of an UNDE member on the committee. - CO mentions there will be a 10-minute presentation of the LMCC (role, responsibilities) at the mandatory briefings in October.
- CO mentions TOR signed and approved by PIPSC, UNDE, and management.
ACTION: Laura Lee to provide POC for PISPSC for the minutes (done), Maria to provide UNDE POC to send the minutes to.
Roundtable (1:10:30 – 1:29:15)
- Sebastien Berube:
o Mentions some problematic interactions between staff that happened mostly during their parental leave. Some D&T staff were victims, but also perpetrators of inappropriate interactions. Mentions that they started to sensibilize D&T section leaders to the importance of preserving good professional relationships with colleagues within D&T and other departments. Mentions that employees can resolve some situations between themselves, but if they feel the need they can escalate those to the department managers, and this will be discussed between themselves to solve any of those situations. Mentions that due to the stress imposed on the clinic (leave, workload, etc.) it can lead to frustrations, but getting those frustrations out on colleagues is not going to help anybody.
o CO mentions that those communications breakdowns are mostly due to the unique challenges that were presented to the clinic (short staffed, move, complex roles, etc.).
o Laura Lee mentions a problematic interaction overheard in the treatment room where a military member of higher rank totally down spoke to a military member of another rank. Asks if this is common due to the chain of command structure.
o Kailey mentions the military moving towards the NOC (Notice of Occurrence) structure to report potential cases of Harassment/inappropriate behavior.
o CO confirms the move towards NOC. CO mentions the days of the predominance of the rank are over.
o Kailey asks about potential mediation services/programs.
o Sebastien mentions that there is always the opportunity for people to try to resolve their issues together, but they can also, if they are uncomfortable, move those issues higher in the chain of command and the managers can discuss issues between themselves.
o Jean Millette mentions that there is always the opportunity of getting help from the conflict resolution center. However, both parties must agree to it.
o Laura Lee mentions the conflict resolution center can facilitate group mediation sessions if they are requested to, like happened with the kitchen staff not so long ago.
o Kailey asks if the conflict resolution center participated in the mandatory briefings last fall, but they didn’t.
o CO mentions that the tone used during a conversation can be interpreted differently depending on the person who is having the interaction. If inappropriate or vulgar to report immediately, but if it’s related to the tone, discussions can be held to make sure there are no misunderstandings. Mentions they can impose military members to attend conflict resolution center services, but can only recommend in the case of civilians until it becomes a problem.
o Shawna requests if there has been any increase in these types of behaviors. o CO mentions that there was no increase in this type of behavior, only an ongoing thing due to the clinic housing 190 staff members and multiple disciplines that are passionate about their jobs, interpersonal conflict is inevitable. Thinks said conflicts are managed well here. Human nature.
o Laura Lee mentions that civilian staff members can go through their union stewards to fill complaints of that nature, this has been very quiet on that front for an extended period.
- Shawna Berthe requests more details on the escort situation with a patient that showed repetitively without their escort.
o Laura Lee has the paperwork and the investigation is pending.
o CO mentions when they were made aware the MP’s were called and MWO Hancock became the patient’s escort. Patient was most probably not id’ed properly at the front door.
- Closing Remarks: CO thanked everybody for attending
- Meeting Adjourned at 15:03: Next LMCC meeting to happen in November 2025. Date TBC
Maj. Nathan MacKinnon, CD
CO-Chair / CO 42 CF H Svcs C
L.L. Mullin
CO-Chair / 42 CF H Svcs C
M. Gooding
CO-Chair / 42 CF H Svcs C