PRQC Meeting Minutes - October 23, 2019

Meeting Date

October 23, 2019

Time

8:30 am Delta Hotel 101 Lyons, Ottawa, ON              

Members 

(Present)

Thomas Landry Chair PRQC

Gerry Sanders, SH Group

John Eng, NR Group

Linda Joly, AFS Group

Nashwa Tamraz, CS Group

Rohvit Chhabra, CFIA Group

Johanne Potvin, AFS Group

Michael Uminsky, PIPSC Staff Member (PM)

Gary Corbett, PIPSC Vice President

Members (Absent)

None

Alternates

None

Invitees/Observers

Erika Bernstein - cancelled

Presenters

None

Secretariat

Linda Joly

Item #

Discussion Summary

Action Required

Completed Action

1. 

Call to order by the Chair

2.

Approval of Agenda 

Motion to approve the Agenda

Moved by: John 

Seconded by: Natasha 

Carried

3.

Approval the Minutes

Motion approved the April 29, 2019 meeting minutes at our June strategic work session.

4.

Items arising from the previous minutes

300 Word Essay (John will resend the essay he submitted)

Collaborations

Michael will look for data from Labour to track the issues of grievances filed with Article 1.

PEA – BC Professional Employee Union – Professional Reliance, basically about professional in BC public services, (focus specifically to Science Officers) i.e. licensed engineers, foresters, geologists, etc.  A report identifying problems of non recognition of professionals – move forward to the legislature on how provincial employers should be treating their members.  A report will be put together for our review on how there maybe similarities to how our Professionals are being treated.

Thomas to meet at the Consultation Committee and stress the fact the members need to be supported at the Mid Year Performance period to help them stress to the members that we are professionals and should be.  Will discuss the next survey and our presentation at steward council in the fall.

Possibly develop a workshop where we can meet with members at Steward Council – come up with a session where we can speak directly with members about the priority issues facing professionals –

Office space (Sean O’Reilly to be invited and give us an update on this topic), 

Professional Development (Thomas to have discussions with Dale on moving forward with getting professional development out to members).  

Conference attendance, members should feel they have access to attend (Michael will look into the RE SP RCO collective agreements).   

Performance Management (Michael to look into other groups with performance management in their bargaining, payment of fees.  

Asana Presentation (Michael)

This collaboration tool will be used by the PRQC – Michal will send us all an email and invite us to the Asana application.  Used to help keep track of our progress, collaboration

CPA

Last year Stewart prepared the Johanne has not yet made contact to arrange to be present at the CPA annual convention.  Possibly arrange with AFCO, share a booth – unsure if there is a probability of reciprocal advertising.  She will follow up with Stewart and take the lead to request approval for Johanne to participate at the CPA convention with CPA having a booth at our AGM in November

Ongoing

Ongoing

Michael

Michael

Thomas

Thomas

Michael

Michael

Michael

Johanne

Completed

Invite Sean to December meeting

NO access to non staff at the moment.

Not yet presented at the Exec Comm- Gary to bring forward - parked

5.

Participation at Professional Associations

Misunderstanding of issuing the request to the Executive Committee to have approval send a PRQC Member to the CPA – unfortunately, this was not completed – Johanne is able to attend on October 28, 2019 – but approval to attend would need to be received today – the cost would be approximately $ 3,500 – Gary requested this immediately 

Gerry advised that the Nursing Association AGM waived the fee--

Participation at Association Conference Reports

(Gerry – Rohit)

National Nursing Conference – June 2019

Gerry – to prepared a written report ASAP – 800 nurses – Gerry spoke with many prov presidents – not surprised their issues are similar to the federal nurses’ issues – de-professionalization was a common theme in most discussions with the nurses – 

National Canada Veterinary Association July 2019

Rohit Will send the report via email

Purpose need to be strong on neutral exchange of being present with each others association

Thomas is hearing there are many challenges with how the veterinarians are being treated in the work place, such as de-professionalization - 

Discuss the importance of the mutual exchange and participation in the Professional AGM’s/Conferences

Johanne will reach out to ACFO if we can place our banner along side of theirs as we are too late to rent a booth next week

Next Meetings 

The 5^th meeting was to be in December – this afternoon, after Steward Council reports – Michael and Erika to give discussion on survey themes – we will select questions with clear understanding of our goals – agreed to meet December 18, 2019

Michael and Ericka to begin designing the survey, expected to be ready in mid December – we will have our meeting then to have a preliminary review of the questions.

We will spend ½ the day of strategic planning 

Thomas attended a Health Group meeting, sept 18 – the group is picking up on our initiative, they are getting interested in the de-professionalization affect he members and discuss with the executive – Joanne Bouchard, putting forward to have the SH sub group look into this further.  Joanne very engaged in working with the PRQC, she is very supportive of our work.  

Nurses, social workers, psychologist impacted the most, but all members are feeling this impact - 

Thomas discussed the Scientific Integrity and how it came about and how it can tie into with the same efforts of the PRQC -  will join into a Donat Morrisson – Corrections – Conference call and discuss the terms of reference and link the PRQC group – SH group may become part of this as well, secondly the NR Group may be feeling de-professionalized as well – 

– SP, RE & National Research Council – this sub committee, from SAC – became leader in scientific integrity – help build proposal for scientist

Strategic Planning Discussions

Reviewed the strategic plan – preparing for the December meetings – 

Mandate, Objective – brush up on PIPSC Strategic Decisions – Gary said the plan is very board – 3 key areas, value-based statements – gives member some guide posts.  Our work will fit into the 3 main PIPSC objectives.

2017 – there are 5 goals – action point to Gary – share with us 

Long-term

Strategy # 1 – 100^th Celebration 

Thomas has attended meetings – looking like it will be very engaging - and will be off of the work plan at the end of this year

Strategy # 2 – Data Collection & Management

Very frustrated, difficult to get a survey off the ground – very supportive from Ontario/BC-Yukon Directors, Gary to assist with this as well – looking for Regional Directors to support our request to issue a survey – part of a recommendation in the report to the board.  Still missing information on Article 1 used in grievances.

For example, the workplace venues would benefit by using Article 1 in the grievances – Johanne mentioned that a database is being put together with the grievances with the article, the success rate and time frame – Professional Integrity – challenged by adding more language vs. existing language is a problem – more difficult to convince treasury board that more articles are necessary -  - how is the committee of the board addressing issues such as activity based work stations  - not office space driven, specifically working conditions

Strategy # 3 - Communications

Still need to provide ideas to the board regarding National Public Service Week – similar to the work done by Communications, invite Communications to sit in our first meeting to discuss suggestions.

No booth at the AGM this year, we will aim for next year – as this year we met with stewards

Website – being maintained well – update Association Reports once submitted

Strategy #4 - Engagement

Award members for outstanding contribution to their members – similar to the Gold Medal Award – but specific to their Professional contributions made to your professional bodies.  Example, John Eng, proposed that we recognize Tim Kirky for his contribution to the Engineering

Round table on Steward Council – how were we received?

John – over 250 people, had an hour but not sufficient, PowerPoint slide of who we are, not enough time, lots of questions and queries into who we are and what we do – high expectations – 

Gerry – no place to present on agenda, made it work by engaging as many as possible over break and in-between sessions, questioned how PIPSC nationally supports PRQC and our political lead, do they take us seriously, advised we were and very supported – explained it was Gary and asked why no Political Lead was not present at the Atlantic Council.  

Gary – great discussion, good to have separate reporting events, Gary is writing a report to board about reporting – all events should be reported back to the board  -  our PRQC reports should be reported back to Gary to bring to the board on our behalf – use reports to lead into the need for the survey

Johanne – lack of time no time slot, but then gave her 15 minutes – then time became available – she made the presentation and gave the paper to the table, the stewards were very engaged, Steve & Sean seen the excitement with PRQC – then led into the Professional Canada – summarized the notes, a very good exchange of information

Natasha – people were not sure who PRQC is, boost after Debi’s speech – large interest then with our committee – good energy – good feedback, lot of ideas – deal with expectations – good positive comments on the session

Thomas – attended Ontario Council – 20 people attended at the end of the day – the discussion went so well, had to put a stop to the discussion due to time restraints – concerned with regions not offering a spot for our outreach.

Goal of Survey

To prepare a publication similar to the Big Chill by Scientific Integrity – perhaps different communication delivery – tell a story of the impact of our members not being treated professionally in their work dealings – essence the 1^st question from our Steward Council presentations – more with factual details and experiences – whereas the professionals feel they will be more useful to Canadians if they feel like they are treated as professionals and contribute to the well-being of Canadians

Bring the issues to the bargaining team, create an article onbringing professionalism in the Collective Agreements

Want to see that there is results with the survey and it has value – an action – less broad

Lots of information shared with the stewards, generated lots of interest from stewards, we need to be active and act upon the results

Be specific in what we are looking for – our role would ne to encourage our collogues and members to participate in the survey

Use the data from the definitions gathered at Steward Council, use their input and drill it down to ideas to form survey questions – show that the efforts put forth have been used in developing the survey

Believes that we heard from the stewards, need to hear more from the members – come up with an action plan

We heard from the stewards on the ground, we need to summarize what the stewards feel are the biggest issues – goal to submit information to PIPSC employees- communication, researchers, negotiators, let them know what the issues are affecting the members, and what action will PIPSC want to take 

Goal – want to see action – not just another survey – it is engagement, speaking more of the campaign and strategies from the survey – de-professionalization is a big one, i.e. SH Group – gets trickier with a survey with multiple occupations – Michael will review the Steward Council feed back – will use to form questions, themes, perhaps use a specific group as a pilot to see what happens- member wide survey - 

Objective – help PIPSC see the bigger picture – 

Challenge with the PSES is the questions are geared by the employer to get a desired outcome

Discussed various themes that maybe identified in the survey – Michael and Erica will come up with questions based on the best themes – examples:

• not respecting professional judgement
• ethically questions, like modifying a report
• feel appreciated/valued
• job description issue
• reporting to non professionals who are assessing their professional work
• professional training
• water down qualifications to do a job – back to job description
• career progression, transparency, hire outside the expertise
•  less generic job decryptions and more tailored to the actual needs
• Micro management and autonomy
• Performance management – arbitrary view and subjective by the supervisor
• Favoritism, sometimes job evaluation is used as a tool
• Public trust
• Lack of empowerment

Michael, will review the brainstorming ideas and review other sources for information, example the PSES – past survey results

Have a conference call to address issues Michael & Erica may address prior to starting survey either before or after the AGM

Reports from Steward Council

Ontario Steward Council – Thomas Landry

Notes

Table 1

Management of Work

• Mgrs. don’t have the work experience, education amp;/or knowledge

• for specific job they are managing.
• Trust issues/lack of respect for work of the professional.
• Gatekeepers- chose who they wish to offer training to.
• Ego vs getting the job done right.
• Performance mgt is arbitrary; ultimately the performance
• evaluation reflects the personality of the mgt/team leader.
• Lacks concrete value/information
• Evaluations are meaningless & don’t contribute to job success.
• We’ve had employee who team leaders hold back on providing an
• evaluation & ultimately the employee wasn’t able to qualify for a
• recent evaluation (which was required for the process)
• Favouritism
• Lacking empowerment
• Unclear job requirements- vary from one mgr. to another/team
• leader to another.

What would happen if employees were empowered to think and be valued?

• Healthy workplace
• Positive attitude
• Showing of knowledge = improving level of service = work

• done right.
• Improve productivity
• Improve morale in the workplace
• Strong workplace culture
• Less sick time

De-professionalization

• No support for education that’s required to maintain licence
• Professionals doing?? /clerical work
• Non professionals making decision that should be done by

• professionals
• Hiring less qualified people to do professional work
• Hiring people with general degrees (not profession specific)
• Managers hiring employees with similar degrees (as the managers)
  • favoritism.
• Hiring casual staff to fill indeterminate jobs.
• Targeted hiring – posters with specific requirements; only
• advertising in the federal service website.
• Consequences/ values

• Public trust
• Integrity
• Heath (Public Health & Safety)
• Poor service to Canadians

BC/Yukon Steward Council – Natasha

PRQC workshop (BC/Yukon Steward Council Oct. 18-19/2019)

Management:

• Value of training and education: It may take 5 minutes to do a job but we need to be recognized

• for the fact that I spent 10 years training to be able to do that job in 5 minutes

• Lack of professional leaders and the current ones:
• prevent professionals from publishing/presenting their work under their name which in

• turn Limits opportunities and hinders professionals’ careers
• question professional judgement
• are not professionally connected to (do not understand the professions of) the people
• they supervise
• do not support professional development
• unable to evaluate professional work
• assess based on production i.e. quantity not quality
• don’t understand professions’ process and consequently can’t assess merit
• Lack of respect for/hinder continuing education
• Lack professional judgement and hinder it among their staff
• Lack professionalism yet dictate how professionals apply it
• Refuse to rely on professionally accredited people to make knowledge-based decisions

• Return to promotion based on merit (experience, excellence in service, professional training)
• 180/360 review assessment for managers which should be made public
• Ability to professionally synthesize data to properly inform decision-makers.
• Professionals are an investment. This up-front investment leads to larger returns in value and

• less long-term cost in liability and unforeseen expenses.

• No leadership
• No accountability
• High turnover of managers
• Overall moral very low

De-professionalization:

• Reduce requirement for professional accreditation
• Automation /admin work taking away from professional’s valuable time
• No support staffs
• supervise computers
• Less time to apply science/technical skills
  • Canadians suffer when professionals can’t do their job properly
  • Professional work contracted out
  • “not mandatory” = no budget “article 18: Career Development”
  • More females in lower classification level
  • Job descriptions/responsibilities vary in classifications and/or are too generic
  • Not valuing
• Education/certification/accreditation
• Experience

Atlantic Steward Council – Gerry Saunders

PRQC information obtained from stewards, Atlantic Steward Council Oct 18-19^th 2019 

                  Management: 

• Respect of education and experience and how this is necessary to effectively do the job assigned. 
• Lack of professional leaders specific to do the job 
•  

•  Managers are not necessarily that of the profession they supervise, example would be non –nursing manager for a department that are exclusively nurses, thus not respecting or understanding the roles and responsibilities set forth in job descriptions. 
•  
• struggling to have fees reimbursed, will not pay to attend professional development events on a weekend.  
•  
• No training for existing employees for new skills required for the job. 
•  
• Managers talk as if they do respect professional standards but don’t in practise, example: very difficult and challenging to attend a scientific conference despite the rational given to attend and how this would benefit the organization, preferential treatment given to some , unfortunately union activist such as stewards are sometimes looked upon as being “trouble makers” and can be isolated from continuing education. 
•  
• Some professionals have chosen not to remain in their professional designation organization, hence eroding at the level of professionalism in the workplace, example Chartered Professional Accountants (CPAG)  
•  
• Some comments were directed at the organization and managers being very supportive of continuing education and professional growth. 
•  
• Definition of professionalism 
•  
• Someone who is qualified to do their job and who takes it seriously 
• Behaves in a manner that is professional, example respects others and their ideas, opinions, values others, themselves and the work they do. 
• Commitment to values and ethics and to doing the right thing using said judgement and common sense,  
• A lifelong learner, and open minded are key components of being a professional public servant. 
•  Accountability of licence to practice and a duty to provide “professional services” 
• A government employee, treated and respected as such and given the best opportunity to perform and grow by the employer. 

            De-professionalization 

• Reduce requirement for professional accreditation 
• Automation /admin work taking away from professional’s valuable time 
  • No support staff, issues such as HR, travel and other admin duties can take up a significant amount of time, examples scanning                             travel claim receipts, ordering office supplies, searching for contact info. job description, a vetting of responsibilities are not things                     that are discussed frequently. 
  • Contracting out  
                      Less time to apply science/technical skills 
• Population, consumers are given a grave injustice when professionals can’t do their job properly 
• More females in lower classification level 
• Job descriptions/responsibilities vary in classifications and/or are too generic, a trend that is being seen with all disciplines. 
• Moving medical decisions to non-medical staff, example would be terminally ill applications require medical review however based on predictive analytics they feel they could move this work to a benefit officer who would have zero medical knowledge. 
• Changing “deny letters” so it could be moved to non-medical staff 
• No respect for critical thinking skills and expertise. 
• Not valuing  

Education/certification/accreditation, not providing the training and education necessary to maintain standards of practise.

Quebec Steward Council – Johanne Potvin

GESTION DU TRAVAIL:

• SH: manque de formation. En région : manque de formation. Délai d’approbation trop long et
• trop haut, pcq provient du BP – problèmes de budgets, veulent pas payer les couts.
• Bataille pour renouveler leur association pcq formation non-reçu.
• VFS : Verif : trop d’étapes à suivre dans le W des vérificateurs. Temps élevés (nbr heures) on fait
• fi de notre professionnalisme. Formateur pas formé- peu d’expérience.
• Gestionnaire remettent en question des décisions d’admissibilité, ne respectent pas le jugement
• professionnel de l’employé (qui souvent à une maitrise dans son domaine)
• Agence des inspection des aliments : Gestionnaire non-professionnels gère des professionnels.
• Plan d’apprentissage (contenu, formation, politique) mis en place- mais pas facile si la
• production n’est pas rencontrer.
• Heures de formation obligatoires pour les ordres professionnelles sont non-officialiser dans les
• conventions.
• Tous les groupes : Manque de formation- pas de remboursement des couts pour assister à des
• formation technique extérieure. 100% des études payés par l’employés.

• Soutien de la Gestion : Aucun support des gestionnaires :
• Les Statistique avant productivité.
• Mini-gestion.
• Pas de bon soutien, détruisent le moral et esprit d’équipe.
• Gestionnaire- manque de temps car trop d’employés ou manque d’expérience.
• Dotation-manque de ressources-poste vacants.
• Role non-clarifié.
• .
• Manque de ressources/relève. Gestionnaires intérimaires qui ne respectent pas les conventions.

DEFINITION DU PROFESSIONNALISME :

• Un employé effectuant des taches cléricales fait aussi son travail avec du professionnalisme.
• Agir en professionnel.
• Ca peut être : Effectue des taches non-cléricales.
• Liberté et autonomie dans gestion du travail. Jugement, intégrité, compétent.
• Comportement approprié (responsabilité)
• Pas nécessaire ordre professionnel. Etudes ou équivalent. Ethique.
• Position avec des taches reliés à une profession-des connaissances.
• Attitudes-qualité du travail-haut niveau. Niveau de responsabilité.
• Respect son code de profession (médecin, comptable, ingénieur).
• La définition devrait être limitée à un membre d’un ordre professionnel. Les autres
• professionnels représentés par le PIPSC (ex : les CS) sont davantage des experts que des
• professionnels.

DÉPROFESSIONNALISATION :

• Pour les CS – description de poste est souvent très générique ce qui permet pas de se spécialiser
• dans un domaine particulier. Apporte une lacune au niveau de l’encadrement des employés qui
• en ont vraiment de besoin.
• SH : moins de temps à la profession. Trop de tâches administratives qui ne devraient pas relever
• des scientifiques.
• Manque de ressources qui poussent a faire des taches à l’extérieur du domaine professionnel.
• Description des taches génériques qui ne correspondent pas à la réalité.
• Manque de support administratif/informatique- vrai aussi pour les CS.
• Gestionnaires qui ne connaissent pas les enjeux du domaine et qui s’ingèrent dans nos
• décisions.
• VFS : AU vs SP, vérification fait par des SP.
• 30% de moins de travail de vérification qu’avant du aux nombreux rapports, logiciels de
• statistique, feuilles de temps, livre de sortie. Infantilisation des employés par la remise en
• question du travail effectué. Assurance-qualité sans valeur ajouté pour le contribuable, ni pour
• l’employé.
• Défense : Dé-classification des postes professionnels pour diminuer le déficit de la masse
• salariale. Embauche de militaires au lieu de civils.
• WP3 : agent de dépistage de santé mentale(cheap labour) Pas d’ordre professionnel.
• PS-SW : nb heures requis pour ordre professionnel-mais pas inclus dans les conventions.
• CS : Besoin de formation pour rester à jour dans leur compétence (expertise à jour)
• Trop de niveau d’approbation. Pas consulté dans la prise de décision. Pas d’écoute des
• supérieurs ni de confiance.
• Perte d’autonomie professionnelle pcq trop de taches administratives.(commis, lettres,
• w.clérical)
• Pas de confiance de la gestion envers aspect professionnel.
• Pas considéré comme des professionnels mais comme des exécutants.
• Fractionnement des taches a un niveau qui ne requiert plus l’expertise.
• La gestion de « pas à pas » Les directives et les processus pas `pas qui limitent le jugement
• professionnel et la liberté d’exercer nos fonctions selon nos normes professionnelles.

NCR Steward Council – John Eng

PRQC Wksp at NCR Steward Council held on 27 Sep 2019

Professionalization:

• “Professionalism” is defined by establishing as follows:
  • Training qualifications (i.e. acceptable qualifications?).
  • A professional association (i.e. to recommend best practice and/or oversee the
• conduct of members of the profession).
  • Licensing laws (i.e. indemnification, underwriter, liability insurance, etc.).
  • Two tier system (i.e. Regulated and Non-regulated?).
  • Established an ethical, competent, dependable, and dedicated profession.
  • Specialized fields of study/competency.
• -

De-professionalization:

• Outdated Job description which are not accurate.
• Percentage of time spent doing “non-professional tasks” (i.e. such as general admin

• support tasks for yourself).

• Management focus specific tasks for individual jobs (i.e. Micro-management.).
• Members not attending Technical/Trade Conference.
• Amend staffing process (i.e. best fit versus most qualified).
• Managers are qualified to oversee employees.
• Non-designated employee doing same work as designated professional employee.

• (i.e. contracting out?).

• Education/certification/accreditation.
• Job Experience/job knowledge.
• Out-sourcing/contracting out.
• Budgetary constraints dictate outcomes.
• Management’s Priorities run counter to professional conduct?

Management of Work:

• Managers qualified to supervise work? Daily work?
• Leaders to recognize the “professions” and the value the bring to the organization.
• Managers do not support “professional training” (i.e. lack of budget to offer continual

• professional training, upgrade training, etc.).

• Establish and fund Master’s Program, thereby offering opportunities and professional

• development to members.

• Questioning professional judgement? Who signs professional assessments?
• Ethical question? Modifying reports drafted by professionals?
• Support Evidence-based recommendations/decisions.
• Promotion based on open-transparent system of known criteria (i.e. merit, experience,

• excellence in service, professional training, etc.).

6.

Next meetings:

Next meeting(s)

- PRQC – December 18, 2019

- AGM – November 8 & 9

- Steward Councils - completed

- AC & SBC – October 26, 2019

8.

Round Table

Roundtable

Keep this a meeting a priority when once it is set – full attendance is mandatory – without you, we are failing our Members and Stewards.

Selection of members for the committee will be done later in the year - 

9.

Meeting adjourned at 3:30 pm